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An Interview with Dorothy Sullivan |
Dorothy Sullivan is perhaps best
known for the painting "She Speaks For Her Clan," which
won Best of Show at the Cherokee Trail of Tears Art Show in 1994.
She was also chosen as Red Earth's "Honored One." Dorothy
is Western Cherokee but keeps close ties with the Eastern Cherokees.
Using exhaustive research and dreams as insprition for her paintings,
Dorothy has spent the last seven years directing her "artistic
efforts toward the expression of Cherokee heritage."
On Being a Female Phoenix
Not only do I rise
from my own ashes,
I have to carry them out!
Marilou Awiakta
When did you
first take an interest in art?
I was drawing before
I could write. I remember drawing when I was real small, before
school. I've always been really right-brained so I always think
and communicate in pictures more than words. So, as far as art,
it's always just been a part of me. I didn't really have any training
in art, except what I did myself. I got into high school and I
had one semester, then I went to college and got a B.A. in art
education.
Are there
any artists that particularly inspired you?
In my early years, probably
Andrew Wyeth was one, and Norman Rockwell, because I liked the
way he painted the life around him. In my college art classes,
that was during the time when there was a lot of abstraction-that
was the thing to do, but I've always been very into realism-my
version of realism.
One thing
I like about your art is the work is realistic and yet, with your
arrangements and symbolism, you make it your own.
I like the way one person
described it. They said it was a combination of realism and spiritual
abstraction. I think that's kind of neat. I got in trouble in
one of my classes in college where the teacher criticized my work.
She said I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I said, "That's
okay; I like the trees." ...When I started college it was
a different world. I had four little boys. At that time, you got
out of high school, you got married-that was the deal. I went
to college and had this professor who was a really great teacher,
but he was so chauvinistic. He would say stuff to me like,
"Go home and take care of your kids." And I said, "Well,
that's what I'm doing." Because at the time I was by myself
and I had all these kids and there was nothing you could do as
a woman to make a living except teaching. It was hard, but it
was neat, because he made me so mad, I had to prove to him I could
do it; it forced me to work harder...
When did you
start traveling out to the Eastern Cherokee land?
About six years ago.
Have you noticed
a lot of differences between the Eastern and Western Cherokee
bands?
Some. A lot of the Eastern
people I met-not in the tourist-type places that you see there,
which I just totally avoided-when you meet some of the Eastern
Cherokee people-they're just really open, really loving, very
helpful. I love going back there, just visiting.
So, you're
saying that a difference ?! [laughs]
No, no, that's not
a difference. I didn't expect that, because I was a stranger and
because I look so white. A lot of time I get a little prejudice
because of that. And it's funny, it doesn't seem to be so much
with the fullblood people and it does with people who are white
or part-white.
I know exactly
what you're talking about.
It's funny, because my
great-great-grandfather that came to Oklahoma from Georgia, in
some of the letters and records we have, he seemed to have a lot
of prejudice against him because he was so dark in color. And
I think it's kind of funny now that I get the opposite. I decided
it's really not my problem; I don't worry about it. In some ways
I think it's kind of good because it helps me understand some
other people-not only Indian people-other races, other cultures.
I was thinking
about the prejudice one gets if they have white skin, but today
I was talking to this woman who is black and Cherokee. She was
telling me about how her dad had traveled in the South, in Georgia.
One time he asked for directions and this man told him, "Here's
your directions: roll up your windows, lock your doors, and get
out of town-now." So that kind of puts it in perspective.
Right. Well, I haven't
run into anything like that. I used to at first get a little bit
irritated, but I thought, "I'm not going to worry about it."
Well, also
I think people know your art now. You have credentials; you don't
have to prove yourself.
Yes... but that wasn't
the reason why I started doing it. My dad was born in a double-log
cabin over on my grandma's Cherokee allotment over near Stilwell
in Goingsnake District. When we were growing up he always taught
us about being proud of being Cherokee. It was always something
we just took for granted. It was just a part of us. I'd always
been really interested in history-that was one of my degrees from
college-especially Western and Oklahoman history, because that
was part of me. First I was doing a lot of Western art. Some of
the shows I would run into people-I guess it never occurred to
me that everyone who was Cherokee didn't know about it-but I'd
run into people that didn't know about Cherokee culture. I mean,
I didn't know everything for sure, but I knew a little from what
my dad taught me. I was surprised to run into people that were
so anxious to know something and so about eight years ago, I decided
to concentrate my art on that. It's been really fun-the research,
the libraries, the museums, of course, books and interviews.
It seems like
earlier in books, they'd always read, "Oh, the Cherokee part
is shrouded in mystery and no one knows." But in the last
fears year there's all this information coming out...
When you said some
of the differences, there are some, I guess because of
the separation over time makes a difference in the information
you get. For instance, when I was researching for "She Speaks
for Her Clan," looking for information about the clans, I
got some differences, but I tried to incorporate them. Because,
for me, one the purposes of the painting was to put them back
together, because I used four models from North Carolina and three
from Oklahoma. The Wild Potato Clan, back there they called it
Bear Clan. I just put it together. Twister and Longhair-they also
call it the Wind Clan.
You know that
book, [Gary England's] Those Terrible Twisters? I told my dad,
"They're being prejudiced against you, Howard."
In the painting I used
the mask that was in one of the museums out there-it looks like
it's blowing-for the Longhair Clan.
Were those
masks booger masks?
No, they didn't call
them booger masks. Different craftsmen just carve them out of
wood. Some of the ones I picked they have them hanging over the
chairs of the council chamber of the Eastern Band. They have seven
clans hanging. This is where they have tribal council meetings
in their offices. There's two museums that I went to there...
A couple of years ago I was asked to come to the tribal offices
and the vice-chief presented me with a certificate of appreciation
for preserving Cherokee history. And Tommy was with me-Tommy Wildcat-he
got to go there and meet him.
What are some
of the connections you see between Celtic people and Cherokee
people?
A lot of the designs
that we used are very similar. For instance the Celtic cross is
a symbol that you see all the time. There's a lot of stuff...
for one thing, the Welsh, which is one of my ancestors-there's
a Welsh society here at OU and they interviewed me for one of
their international papers. By coincidence I guess, there was
an article in the same paper about the similarity between the
Welsh language and a lot of the Native American languages. A lot
of the Welsh came over as servants to the English, exploring and
going out and meeting tribes. The Welsh at lot of time could communicate
with the Natives because their languages were similar.
That's amazing.
Some of the Indian tribes
had a bowl boat, that was a round boat made out of bark or hides
stretch over a frame. Well, the Welsh had the same boat.
Like St. Brendan's
boat.
One thing that I thought was interesting, this wouldn't be Celtic
but early Christian. A couple sources I found described the ancient
beliefs of the Cherokees and why they converted to Christianity
was similar beliefs.
Marilou Awiakta-she
talked about that a little bit too in Selu. It seems like the same groups
marry into the Cherokees back in the 1600s: definitely Irish,
Scottish, Welsh, Swedish...
There's a difference
in what people thought of the Natives. The Scottish and Welsh
just became part of the community and the English and, of course,
the Spanish were very, very prejudiced.
[Porshe the Chihuahua starts barking.]
Have you pursued
any Celtic themes in your art work?
No, not really, not yet.
I've been thinking about it.
And right
now, you just finished illustrating two children's books.
The last one was called
The Man Hunting for the Sun and will be out this summer for Macmillan.
That's exciting.
Have you illustrated books before?
No, I have these two
children's books and then I have another I'm supposed to do. There's
another I'm hoping to do. It's called Asking for a Place,
by a Native American writer from the Tulsa area.
What are some
other projects you have planned?
My sister and I are working
together on a project. She started doing miniature sculptures
of the Cherokee Little People. One project we're going to start
doing is a book about the Cherokee little people and medicine
plants-where she writes the stories about the legends of the plants
and what it's used for. We wanted to use common things-like the
rose-things people haven't thought about. So the illustrations
will include a painting of the plant and the Little People. But
I want to take it over to some of the people over in Tahlequah
after we get done and make sure it's all right and that we don't
do anything offensive. We're not going to go into any of the rituals
for the medicine. Just enough that if they're interested, people
can go, try to find out more.
Have you read
Cherokee Plants and Remedies-it's this little booklet. I like
where they talk about using hemlock, things like that.
Oh gosh, yeah. The stuff
they put in Black Drink-how in the world do they survive? I got
interested in some of the names for flowers. Like what we call
Black-Eyed Susan is Deer Eyes, and so I'm going to paint one with
this little girl with a deer and the flowers around-like for fun,
something light and fun for a change.
For more information, write:
Memory Circle Studio
Dorothy Sullivan
PO Box 732
Norman, OK 73070
Dorothy Sullivan is represented by Tribes Gallery, 307 E. Main Street, Norman OK 73069.
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